[SailfishDevel] [Minutes] SailfishOS community meeting 26.11 + planning for next one 3.12

Thomas B. Rücker thomas at ruecker.fi
Fri Nov 27 18:13:32 UTC 2015


Hi,

On 11/27/2015 12:45 PM, E.S. Rosenberg wrote:
> Above the question was raised how much/good of a base the Jolla
> community is, I think the simple fact that Jolla started with
> crowd-funding (The First One, remember?) shows that they have a strong
> and passionate community willing to back them.

I'll have to step in here. You're talking about the past as if it would
be today.
"much/good of a base the Jolla community WAS" FTFY.
While there might still be a community, it's by no means as strong and
enthusiastic as it was before the phone shipped. Jolla managed to
alienate significant parts of the community and many bright and
motivated people just turned away and found something more rewarding to do.


> I did not buy a tablet for the simple reason that I did not see any
> value in a tablet when I have a phone and a laptop on me all the time,
> I was provided a tablet through a program I am currently in and that
> has made me change my mind a bit but by now even if I want I can't buy
> it, the same goes for OH (where is the Angry Birds OH? Stella doesn't
> count because you can't get it without a phone), extra batteries and a
> ton of other things that could have generated some 'cheap' revenue but
> were never done.
>
> As said above now that Jolla essentially canceled the Jolla2 (by
> saying they won't do hw development anymore) it doesn't make sense for
> me to buy another OH because I have no way of know how much ROI I will
> get in the form of being able to use it in the future.

I find it somewhat amusing, that people keep talking about the Jolla
phone the Tablet and a mythical Jolla2 as if their sales could possibly
turn a stone. Those were, rather obviously, huge loss-making endeavours
intended to showcase the capabilities of Jolla engineering.

Jolla was betting from day one on being able to license out their OS and
related services and they were not shy of saying this. At best the Jolla
phone could have provided a bit of additional propulsion through the
initial rough seas, but only if it would have been a massive smash hit
and operators would have lined up with 100k orders around the former
Nokia building that Jolla used to inhabit. The denial in people in this
regard is sometimes astonishing.


> I have no problem with Jolla having a feature bounty program where the
> community can steer what features are important to them and I have no
> problem with Jolla saying "Please help us" in some crowd funding
> campaign, I may not even want a T-shirt in return but to go from there
> to a subscription system for updates to me is completely in-culpable.
>
> If Jolla were to take a more Open Source approach to software
> development they would also find that the cost of development would
> probably be lower after all there are all kinds of basic functions
> that community members have gone and added in the past (keyboards,
> calendar localization, translations etc.) that actually allow the
> phone to be sold in markets that would otherwise just not touch it
> because they can't type/read their local language.
> I have no idea how much time and effort it cost to add the calendar
> localization in SFOS2 (yes it's finally there, I don't need to patch
> it anymore!) and I really hope that they did use my patches because
> otherwise that is a great example of how money is wasted on
> re-developing features done by the community which just need QA.
> I don't believe that Jolla would be in severe danger from being all
> Open Source just look at Red Hat and other big Linux players it can
> work not only that the dirt-cheap Chinese players may copy the product
> but on the way they also expose the platform more and they may also
> both contribute back and have support contracts with Jolla.

This would have worked very well, 2 years ago. That ship has largely
sailed. It's not that Jolla didn't know. I know for a fact that many if
not most developers who were employed by jolla were very strong open
source advocates.

It is my personal opinion, that this was caused by a combination of factors:
 - Jolla Oy not finding at least one hardware partner early on
 - Jolla Oy top management and its investors clinging to "proprietary IPR"
 - A worsened outlook leading to "survival mode" behaviour (due to e.g.
the above two)
 - The aborted Mer/Nemomobile(middleware) merge (due to survival mode,
it actually resumed recently and may complete before its 2 year anniversary)
 - The complete and persistent intransparency in Mer/Nemo/SailfishOS
contribution processes (see previous points)
 - The deterioration of community meetings, especially over the last year
 - The complete absence of community meetings and communications for
over a quarter called "summer vacations"

Especially in the first 5 there is somewhat of a cascade. I obviously
wasn't in the meetings, so I can't ascribe blame. The root cause for
Jolla Oy being perceived as Janus-faced in terms of open source by the
community is probably found somewhere between the scared management and
the open source proponents not being able to explain the valuable
benefits of an open contribution pathway towards Mer/Nemo, as well as
SailfishOS. In some way that's water under the bridge now anyway as
nobody can go back and "fix it". Let's hope that - if this ship doesn't
capsize and sink - that someone will actually learn a lesson from this.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and will say, that what we said was
in the end a smaller typical Nokiaesque failure. After all through their
initial workforce being majorly recruited out of Nokia victims they did
import its culture, both the good and the bad parts and despite claiming
to be "doing it right this time". That is something that I can
personally attest from close observation and experience.


> Anyhow I hope that Jolla pulls through and am waiting to see either
> another crowd funding campaign or some other form of cash generation,
> have you considered selling shares to the community? Or after all
> developing a Jolla2?

Keep in mind they need to fill something like a 10M€ funding gap right
now. Any crowd funding campaign or "community" driven effort is doomed
to be a far cry from this and the remaining gap will still need to be
filled, regardless of its size, by a major investor.

They can start thinking about the community and how to regain its trust,
if they make it through this cyclone without shipwrecking.


Thomas

PS: Some of us who left would probably gladly come back and help, but it
would need Jolla to actually come out honestly and show they can be
trusted. Blog grunting by a CEO who's working on his exit Adventures®
will not do.


>
> Regards,
> Eli
>
> 2015-11-27 11:46 GMT+02:00 Ruediger Schiller <chemist at dostortugas.org
> <mailto:chemist at dostortugas.org>>:
>
>     On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 07:28:17AM +0000, Peter Kovacs wrote:
>     > Hello,
>     >
>     > I am not able to join on next community meeting due to work
>     restrictions I
>     > have. So I can not propose a topic. I am instead post my
>     thoughts directly
>     > to this list.
>     > I think no 1 topic is to stabilise Dev efforts for SailfishOS.
>     > I do not believe to simply put sailfish in multiple places will
>     ensure its
>     > existance. This would only be the case if SailfishOS would open
>     source it's
>     > Software. This would be the death of Jolla in my eyes at this point.
>     >
>     > I see rather a better strategy in a business model change.
>     Instead of
>     > trying to sell the OS to big companies sell the OS to your
>     community.
>
>     Selling it to bigger companies is the actual way to earn a lot of
>     money.
>
>     > I think the crowed funding method was quite successful. So I propose
>     > another Crowed funding camagne. This has now to be a success. So
>     I propose
>     > something small. Like getting payment function into Jolla.
>     > Perks could be to get better conditions after the Shop is live.
>     Maybe 10% -
>     > 50% off.
>     > I do not know how much money you need to make add payment
>     functionallities
>     > and survive the next month)
>
>     Won't generate enough revenue in this timeframe.
>
>     >
>     > Another step could be to have a System suscription. This system
>     > subscription is made to ensure updates. It should not be much
>     like 5-10
>     > euros a month. Free of choice if possible, enforce if
>     neccessary. I have no
>     > feeling how close Jolla is to the death.
>
>     You pay 260€ (now it is 200€ I know) to then pay another 120€ to
>     get upgrades?
>
>     > I do like the Crowed funding mythology of star citizen. Most of
>     them can
>     > not be reused. But in art of communication they are top. Maybe
>     open up your
>     > communication on development, would be great.
>     >
>     > I would also like to see more jolla stuff in the shop. I still
>     want to buy
>     > the external keyboard or the solar panel for jolla. Bit i still
>     can not
>     > find those in the Jolla shop. This is also an income Jolla must
>     participate
>     > in. Sell those stuff even from third party developers in your shop.
>     > I refuse to buy from the third party directly because I know how
>     much jolla
>     > needs the money.
>     >
>     > Get the old hardware section of jolla to develop some more
>     second half
>     > stuff. Like battery banks or 2nd phonecard connector. Maybe a
>     mobility hub
>     > for pcs. I do not know.
>
>     How about another model, sell developer equipment. That could also
>     go for a
>     kickstarter - PCcovers without NFCchip, plain blank covers for
>     cheap in packs of
>     10 with a handfull of solderpins that fit the connectors or 10
>     circuit foil
>     sheets that can be soldered to your ideas. Still nothing that
>     generates revenue
>     fast but with a campaign and announcing a Jolla2 with the same TOH
>     dimensions
>     would give it some drive. Jolla2 announcing in terms of, if we
>     survive we will
>     do anotherone just like Jolla1 with improved hardware, coming
>     2017. On the other
>     hand, doing a complete makeover of that sort is apart of more RAM
>     and bigger
>     mmc not even required. SFOS is now in a stae where any device
>     vendor could jump
>     in and generate a lot of revenue. No idea what google paid for
>     their Nexus
>     phones but I guess the deal zeroed out in the end.
>
>     >
>     > Sorry that this has nothing to do with development of source
>     code. But I
>     > think this is not really time for dreaming of open Source.
>     >
>     > I know that you might not like this steps, but I think there is
>     no chance
>     > in rearranging debts will lead you from the death valley you are in.
>     > That is only one way to get bankrupted fast.
>     > You must generate money quickly. That is the only way somebody will
>     > continue to invest into Jolla. And a credit is also an
>     investment of sort.
>     >
>     > This is an unpleasant message of sort. But jolla should focus on
>     those
>     > people has already convinced. Apple did that in their beginning.
>     I know
>     > some and they agree first iPhone were not very good. I think the
>     sailfish
>     > has potential but currently this potential is limited to the
>     community you
>     > have. And this are the ones here who prepare their products for
>     sailfish,
>     > and the ones who already spend money on the product.
>     >
>     > Please take a break from convincing people that can play Jolla
>     against
>     > android, blackberry and iOS. You can return to that dream if you
>     got out of
>     > the valley.
>
>     Truth is, they need more funds to actually get noticed by people
>     that would
>     become a part of this community in a heartbeat. Just met a guy
>     last week who
>     bought an S6edge the other week and bit his hand when I told him
>     what that phone
>     and tablet on my table are. Looking at Apple, marketing is
>     everything - they
>     sold sour milk to cows and still do. Always fun seeing my iPhone
>     and Android
>     friends struggle with their phones.
>
>     >
>     > I have time from 14th Dec till end of the year. I will
>     participate then in
>     > the meetings and bug you to various topics around Jolla. I hope
>     this helps.
>     >
>     > All the Best
>     > Peter
>     >
>     > Carol Chen <cybette+sailfishos at gmail.com
>     <mailto:cybette%2Bsailfishos at gmail.com>> schrieb am Do., 26. Nov. 2015
>     > 17:17:
>     >
>     > > Hi,
>     > >
>     > > Thanks to everyone who attended today's meeting! Minutes/logs:
>     > >
>     > >
>     Minutes:http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2015/mer-meeting.2015-11-26-14.30.html
>     > > Minutes
>     (text):http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2015/mer-meeting.2015-11-26-14.30.txt
>     > >
>     Log:http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2015/mer-meeting.2015-11-26-14.30.log.html
>     > >
>     > > Next meeting will be on 2015-12-03 @ 14:30 UTC. Meeting Chair
>     will be
>     > > Carsten Munk (Stskeeps). Please propose discussion topics at:
>     https://together.jolla.com/question/54157/sailfishos-open-source-collaboration-meeting-planning/
>     > >
>     > > If you propose a topic, it is expected that you show up and
>     present it,
>     > > or have a substitute participate in the meeting. It is
>     important that
>     > > you're present at the meeting to guide the discussions in the
>     direction
>     > > you want, so we do not spend time guessing what kind of
>     info/answers you
>     > > may be looking for.
>     > >
>     > > NOTE: Propose your topic by Tuesday 1.12. Any topics added
>     after that
>     > > will be considered for the following meeting. Carsten will
>     send out
>     > > meeting invite with confirmed agenda before the meeting.
>     > >
>     > > Cheers,
>     > >   Carol
>     > >
>     > > --
>     > > Carol Chen
>     > > cybette @ Freenode IRC
>     > >
>     > >
>     > > _______________________________________________
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>
>
>     so long and thanks for all the fish
>
>
>     Rüdiger Schiller
>     +--------------------------------------------+
>     | +** *            Chem|st             * **+ |
>     | +****************************************+ |
>     | +****************************************+ |
>     +--------------------------------------------+
>
>
>
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