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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Hi,<br>
<br>
On 11/27/2015 12:45 PM, E.S. Rosenberg wrote:<br>
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<div>Above the question was raised how much/good
of a base the Jolla community is, I think the
simple fact that Jolla started with
crowd-funding (The First One, remember?) shows
that they have a strong and passionate
community willing to back them.<br>
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<br>
I'll have to step in here. You're talking about the past as if it
would be today.<br>
"much/good of a base the Jolla community WAS" FTFY.<br>
While there might still be a community, it's by no means as strong
and enthusiastic as it was before the phone shipped. Jolla managed
to alienate significant parts of the community and many bright and
motivated people just turned away and found something more rewarding
to do.<br>
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<div>I did not buy a tablet for the simple reason
that I did not see any value in a tablet when I
have a phone and a laptop on me all the time, I
was provided a tablet through a program I am
currently in and that has made me change my mind
a bit but by now even if I want I can't buy it,
the same goes for OH (where is the Angry Birds
OH? Stella doesn't count because you can't get
it without a phone), extra batteries and a ton
of other things that could have generated some
'cheap' revenue but were never done.<br>
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As said above now that Jolla essentially canceled
the Jolla2 (by saying they won't do hw development
anymore) it doesn't make sense for me to buy another
OH because I have no way of know how much ROI I will
get in the form of being able to use it in the
future.<br>
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<br>
I find it somewhat amusing, that people keep talking about the Jolla
phone the Tablet and a mythical Jolla2 as if their sales could
possibly turn a stone. Those were, rather obviously, huge
loss-making endeavours intended to showcase the capabilities of
Jolla engineering.<br>
<br>
Jolla was betting from day one on being able to license out their OS
and related services and they were not shy of saying this. At best
the Jolla phone could have provided a bit of additional propulsion
through the initial rough seas, but only if it would have been a
massive smash hit and operators would have lined up with 100k orders
around the former Nokia building that Jolla used to inhabit. The
denial in people in this regard is sometimes astonishing.<br>
<br>
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<div>I have no problem with Jolla having a feature
bounty program where the community can steer what
features are important to them and I have no problem
with Jolla saying "Please help us" in some crowd
funding campaign, I may not even want a T-shirt in
return but to go from there to a subscription system
for updates to me is completely in-culpable.<br>
<br>
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If Jolla were to take a more Open Source approach to
software development they would also find that the cost
of development would probably be lower after all there
are all kinds of basic functions that community members
have gone and added in the past (keyboards, calendar
localization, translations etc.) that actually allow the
phone to be sold in markets that would otherwise just
not touch it because they can't type/read their local
language.<br>
</div>
<div>I have no idea how much time and effort it cost to
add the calendar localization in SFOS2 (yes it's finally
there, I don't need to patch it anymore!) and I really
hope that they did use my patches because otherwise that
is a great example of how money is wasted on
re-developing features done by the community which just
need QA.<br>
</div>
I don't believe that Jolla would be in severe danger from
being all Open Source just look at Red Hat and other big
Linux players it can work not only that the dirt-cheap
Chinese players may copy the product but on the way they
also expose the platform more and they may also both
contribute back and have support contracts with Jolla.<br>
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<br>
This would have worked very well, 2 years ago. That ship has largely
sailed. It's not that Jolla didn't know. I know for a fact that many
if not most developers who were employed by jolla were very strong
open source advocates.<br>
<br>
It is my personal opinion, that this was caused by a combination of
factors:<br>
- Jolla Oy not finding at least one hardware partner early on<br>
- Jolla Oy top management and its investors clinging to
"proprietary IPR"<br>
- A worsened outlook leading to "survival mode" behaviour (due to
e.g. the above two)<br>
- The aborted Mer/Nemomobile(middleware) merge (due to survival
mode, it actually resumed recently and may complete before its 2
year anniversary)<br>
- The complete and persistent intransparency in Mer/Nemo/SailfishOS
contribution processes (see previous points)<br>
- The deterioration of community meetings, especially over the last
year<br>
- The complete absence of community meetings and communications for
over a quarter called "summer vacations"<br>
<br>
Especially in the first 5 there is somewhat of a cascade. I
obviously wasn't in the meetings, so I can't ascribe blame. The root
cause for Jolla Oy being perceived as Janus-faced in terms of open
source by the community is probably found somewhere between the
scared management and the open source proponents not being able to
explain the valuable benefits of an open contribution pathway
towards Mer/Nemo, as well as SailfishOS. In some way that's water
under the bridge now anyway as nobody can go back and "fix it".
Let's hope that - if this ship doesn't capsize and sink - that
someone will actually learn a lesson from this.<br>
<br>
I'm going to go out on a limb here and will say, that what we said
was in the end a smaller typical Nokiaesque failure. After all
through their initial workforce being majorly recruited out of Nokia
victims they did import its culture, both the good and the bad parts
and despite claiming to be "doing it right this time". That is
something that I can personally attest from close observation and
experience.<br>
<br>
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<div>Anyhow I hope that Jolla pulls through and am waiting to
see either another crowd funding campaign or some other form
of cash generation, have you considered selling shares to
the community? Or after all developing a Jolla2?<br>
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<br>
Keep in mind they need to fill something like a 10M€ funding gap
right now. Any crowd funding campaign or "community" driven effort
is doomed to be a far cry from this and the remaining gap will still
need to be filled, regardless of its size, by a major investor.<br>
<br>
They can start thinking about the community and how to regain its
trust, if they make it through this cyclone without shipwrecking.<br>
<br>
<br>
Thomas<br>
<br>
PS: Some of us who left would probably gladly come back and help,
but it would need Jolla to actually come out honestly and show they
can be trusted. Blog grunting by a CEO who's working on his exit
Adventures® will not do.<br>
<br>
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Regards,<br>
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Eli<br>
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<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2015-11-27 11:46 GMT+02:00 Ruediger
Schiller <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:chemist@dostortugas.org" target="_blank">chemist@dostortugas.org</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span
class="">On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 07:28:17AM +0000, Peter
Kovacs wrote:<br>
> Hello,<br>
><br>
> I am not able to join on next community meeting due
to work restrictions I<br>
> have. So I can not propose a topic. I am instead post
my thoughts directly<br>
> to this list.<br>
> I think no 1 topic is to stabilise Dev efforts for
SailfishOS.<br>
> I do not believe to simply put sailfish in multiple
places will ensure its<br>
> existance. This would only be the case if SailfishOS
would open source it's<br>
> Software. This would be the death of Jolla in my eyes
at this point.<br>
><br>
> I see rather a better strategy in a business model
change. Instead of<br>
> trying to sell the OS to big companies sell the OS to
your community.<br>
<br>
</span>Selling it to bigger companies is the actual way to
earn a lot of money.<br>
<span class=""><br>
> I think the crowed funding method was quite
successful. So I propose<br>
> another Crowed funding camagne. This has now to be a
success. So I propose<br>
> something small. Like getting payment function into
Jolla.<br>
> Perks could be to get better conditions after the
Shop is live. Maybe 10% -<br>
> 50% off.<br>
> I do not know how much money you need to make add
payment functionallities<br>
> and survive the next month)<br>
<br>
</span>Won't generate enough revenue in this timeframe.<br>
<span class=""><br>
><br>
> Another step could be to have a System suscription.
This system<br>
> subscription is made to ensure updates. It should not
be much like 5-10<br>
> euros a month. Free of choice if possible, enforce if
neccessary. I have no<br>
> feeling how close Jolla is to the death.<br>
<br>
</span>You pay 260€ (now it is 200€ I know) to then pay
another 120€ to get upgrades?<br>
<span class=""><br>
> I do like the Crowed funding mythology of star
citizen. Most of them can<br>
> not be reused. But in art of communication they are
top. Maybe open up your<br>
> communication on development, would be great.<br>
><br>
> I would also like to see more jolla stuff in the
shop. I still want to buy<br>
> the external keyboard or the solar panel for jolla.
Bit i still can not<br>
> find those in the Jolla shop. This is also an income
Jolla must participate<br>
> in. Sell those stuff even from third party developers
in your shop.<br>
> I refuse to buy from the third party directly because
I know how much jolla<br>
> needs the money.<br>
><br>
> Get the old hardware section of jolla to develop some
more second half<br>
> stuff. Like battery banks or 2nd phonecard connector.
Maybe a mobility hub<br>
> for pcs. I do not know.<br>
<br>
</span>How about another model, sell developer equipment.
That could also go for a<br>
kickstarter - PCcovers without NFCchip, plain blank covers
for cheap in packs of<br>
10 with a handfull of solderpins that fit the connectors or
10 circuit foil<br>
sheets that can be soldered to your ideas. Still nothing
that generates revenue<br>
fast but with a campaign and announcing a Jolla2 with the
same TOH dimensions<br>
would give it some drive. Jolla2 announcing in terms of, if
we survive we will<br>
do anotherone just like Jolla1 with improved hardware,
coming 2017. On the other<br>
hand, doing a complete makeover of that sort is apart of
more RAM and bigger<br>
mmc not even required. SFOS is now in a stae where any
device vendor could jump<br>
in and generate a lot of revenue. No idea what google paid
for their Nexus<br>
phones but I guess the deal zeroed out in the end.<br>
<span class=""><br>
><br>
> Sorry that this has nothing to do with development of
source code. But I<br>
> think this is not really time for dreaming of open
Source.<br>
><br>
> I know that you might not like this steps, but I
think there is no chance<br>
> in rearranging debts will lead you from the death
valley you are in.<br>
> That is only one way to get bankrupted fast.<br>
> You must generate money quickly. That is the only way
somebody will<br>
> continue to invest into Jolla. And a credit is also
an investment of sort.<br>
><br>
> This is an unpleasant message of sort. But jolla
should focus on those<br>
> people has already convinced. Apple did that in their
beginning. I know<br>
> some and they agree first iPhone were not very good.
I think the sailfish<br>
> has potential but currently this potential is limited
to the community you<br>
> have. And this are the ones here who prepare their
products for sailfish,<br>
> and the ones who already spend money on the product.<br>
><br>
> Please take a break from convincing people that can
play Jolla against<br>
> android, blackberry and iOS. You can return to that
dream if you got out of<br>
> the valley.<br>
<br>
</span>Truth is, they need more funds to actually get
noticed by people that would<br>
become a part of this community in a heartbeat. Just met a
guy last week who<br>
bought an S6edge the other week and bit his hand when I told
him what that phone<br>
and tablet on my table are. Looking at Apple, marketing is
everything - they<br>
sold sour milk to cows and still do. Always fun seeing my
iPhone and Android<br>
friends struggle with their phones.<br>
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
><br>
> I have time from 14th Dec till end of the year. I
will participate then in<br>
> the meetings and bug you to various topics around
Jolla. I hope this helps.<br>
><br>
> All the Best<br>
> Peter<br>
><br>
> Carol Chen <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cybette%2Bsailfishos@gmail.com">cybette+sailfishos@gmail.com</a>>
schrieb am Do., 26. Nov. 2015<br>
> 17:17:<br>
><br>
> > Hi,<br>
> ><br>
> > Thanks to everyone who attended today's
meeting! Minutes/logs:<br>
> ><br>
> > Minutes:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2015/mer-meeting.2015-11-26-14.30.html"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2015/mer-meeting.2015-11-26-14.30.html</a><br>
> > Minutes (text):<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2015/mer-meeting.2015-11-26-14.30.txt"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2015/mer-meeting.2015-11-26-14.30.txt</a><br>
> > Log:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2015/mer-meeting.2015-11-26-14.30.log.html"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2015/mer-meeting.2015-11-26-14.30.log.html</a><br>
> ><br>
> > Next meeting will be on 2015-12-03 @ 14:30
UTC. Meeting Chair will be<br>
> > Carsten Munk (Stskeeps). Please propose
discussion topics at: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://together.jolla.com/question/54157/sailfishos-open-source-collaboration-meeting-planning/"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://together.jolla.com/question/54157/sailfishos-open-source-collaboration-meeting-planning/</a><br>
> ><br>
> > If you propose a topic, it is expected that
you show up and present it,<br>
> > or have a substitute participate in the
meeting. It is important that<br>
> > you're present at the meeting to guide the
discussions in the direction<br>
> > you want, so we do not spend time guessing
what kind of info/answers you<br>
> > may be looking for.<br>
> ><br>
> > NOTE: Propose your topic by Tuesday 1.12. Any
topics added after that<br>
> > will be considered for the following meeting.
Carsten will send out<br>
> > meeting invite with confirmed agenda before
the meeting.<br>
> ><br>
> > Cheers,<br>
> > Carol<br>
> ><br>
> > --<br>
> > Carol Chen<br>
> > cybette @ Freenode IRC<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> >
_______________________________________________<br>
> > SailfishOS.org Devel mailing list<br>
> > To unsubscribe, please send a mail to<br>
> > <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:devel-unsubscribe@lists.sailfishos.org">devel-unsubscribe@lists.sailfishos.org</a><br>
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<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
so long and thanks for all the fish<br>
<br>
<br>
Rüdiger Schiller<br>
+--------------------------------------------+<br>
| +** * Chem|st * **+ |<br>
| +****************************************+ |<br>
| +****************************************+ |<br>
+--------------------------------------------+<br>
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